My brother, like I said to you earlier, if you must understand the Bible very well, you will have to know certain things such as: 1. Who wrote the particular chapter? 2. Who was the recipient. 3.Is it a literal or figurative or mixed? 4. What was the historical background to the chapters been written? These and many more will help to understand the issue at hand.
The key to Ezekiel 28 is not difficult to unearth. Firstly, we must emptied our mind of what we have been holding on to which were infused in us from our Sunday schools. Only the truth can make us free.
Ezekiel 28:2 is the key!
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Ezekiel:28:2
With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Ezekiel:28:4
See verse 2, the scriptures says......yet you're a MAN and not God!
Vs 4 says the King or Prince of Tyrus has gotten himself riches by his wisdom......
This is not definitely talking about SATAN but a man and or a Nation! To fall from heaven or to be cast from heaven is a metaphor of being removed from the position of power and authority,
see Lamentations 2 vs 1:
How hath the LORD covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!
Lamentations:2:1
Does it mean the daughter of Zion was covered with clouds? Definitely not. Does it mean she was cast down from heaven? Surely no. But this is like a metaphor. The Hebrew language has a lot of such usage. Yahshua said be old I saw Satan fall down from Heaven like lightning. ...... The disciples understood that He was using a common figurative expression. Meaning that Satan is being deprived of his power and authority because of the work Yahshua was about to accomplish. He also said "Now is the judgement of the prince of this world".....
So we must understand that Ezekiel 28 cannot be forced to mean Satan.
Satan was not created and put in Eden. It was Adam that we knew was put in Eden literally. Eden also can be symbolic. You may also check out the meaning of Eden.
See also the following verses and check if that were Satan or a king or a Nation.
Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel:28:10
So which strange nations will Yahweh use to destroy the King of Tyrus who we have been taught to mean Satan?
Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel:28:12
Another key to the understanding is this verse 12...... Take up a Lamentation. .......... Yahweh was telling Ezekiel that He was about to talk to him in parables filled with figure of speech languages related to this proud King of Tyrus. Remember that it is Yahweh that put a king and remove a king!
My brother, Hebrew thinking is not like the Western thinking. The whole of Ezekiel 28 is not talking about any Satan. It's talking about a MAN or a NATION..... not SATAN. If it were talking about SATAN, then it would have been stated from the beginning. The change in verse 12 is to take up a Lamentation (figurative usage of words) against the same MAN and not SATAN. The being called SATAN was created by Yahweh himself for His own purpose. I will send you some materials for our further reading to elucidate more on this topic. The main problem is what we have been taught. .....
Esh......I don't know how to explain this again but I think it's better we put effort in understanding the Hebrew thinking, cultures and way of writing originally. That will help with many seeming confusing passages in the bible. It's the western thinking we have that makes us think that seeming immortal attributes cannot be used for a mortal being. Ezekiel can not be directed to prophesy to King of Tyrus and all of a sudden Yahweh will tell him to prophesy against SATAN. Think about it.
Bro Chimaizom, I would like to ask you one question. Why would you say that we have to take Ezekiel 28 for its literal meaning? So you are saying that Yahweh was sending Ezekiel a message to Ha Satan? Because Yahweh said to Ezekiel to take up a Lamentation against the King of Tyrus. Is the king of Tyrus Satan? All the description that confuse people in the lose verses can be used for humans according to Hebrew culture. The only challenge is that nobody is ready to go research how the Hebrews write and also their poetry usage. It's a Lamentation that Yah asked Ezekiel to TAKE up against king of Tyrus. You didn't answer some questions I asked earlier regarding this Ez 28.i have been on the road most times of today and was in my village where Etisalat wasn't working, hence my inability to contribute on time.
The Origin and Identity of Satan
The famed preacher Peter Marshall once said that Satan was the personification of man. Those words stuck with me, and I have often pondered them over the years, asking the Lord for understanding. I couldn’t see it the way Marshall put it, but I sensed there was truth in those words when I first red them in the 70’s.
Satan has been a mystery to all of us. Should that be any wonder, he being the prince of darkness, the deceiver, thief, murderer, and father of lies?
Though an enigma, however, he has been much nearer at hand than most have imagined.
Of him, the apostle Paul wrote:
“In whom the god of this worldhath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4, KJV).
“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel [messenger] of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14, KJV).
Who is Satan? When was he created? What is his history? How may we discern and identify him?
What is written here will come as a surprise to many because they have been indoctrinated with false notions from orthodox Christendom, which blends ancient pagan teachings with Biblical ones. Many teachers of the orthodox tradition are theological intellectuals with degrees and PhD’s. As Paul warned:
“For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them. Therefore watch and remember that for the time of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears” (Acts 20:29-31 MKJV).
It was not long before most, if not all, of the so-called “church fathers” fulfilled Paul’s words.
This destructive mixture of truth and falsehood has come from men , who often come in the Name of Jesus Christ. It is the work of Satan’s wife, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots, a spiritual organism of people in heaven and on earth. As the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism made up of born-again believers in heaven and on earth, so Mystery, Babylon the Great is made up of people in heaven (the spiritual dimension) and on earth.
She, in her corporate body, has subjected the children of this world to confusion and destruction. And why shouldn’t Satan’s wife, his body, faithfully do his work, being one with him?
“And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all those who were slain on the earth” (Revelation 18:24 MKJV).
Take note that Mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots, represents the false religious works of men :
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4 MKJV).
So the works of men are the paths of the destroyer? And they, through their collective representative, Mystery, Babylon the Great, are responsible for the blood of all slain on earth? Doesn’t Satan have any blame coming to him, or is it Satan, the murderer, we are talking about?
*Satan, the Adversarial Dignitary*
Nominal Christendom is right teaching that Satan is the adversary of Jesus Christ and the saints, as expressed in the Scriptures. For example, Michael the archangel of God was upset with Satan for opposing him:
Jude 1:8-9 KJV
(8) Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil ofdignities .
(9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Note that it was not advisable for Michael to treat Satan any way he pleased, even if Satan was in the wrong in Michael’s judgment. Isn’t that interesting? The Bible suggests that Satan is a dignitary under God. That’s not the way orthodox Christendom depicts or treats him. There must therefore be more to Satan than is commonly realized.
*Satan in Heaven and Earth*
While most nominal Christians believe Satan was cast out of Heaven before the creation of man, we find that Satan was in Heaven among the sons of God in Job’s day, as they presented themselves before God, obviously at a time after creation of the earth and the fall of man.
Was Satan always in Heaven? If not, how did he get there? And when, why, and how was he cast out, if he was cast out? Those questions and more will be answered as you continue reading. It is a wonderfully emancipating experience when we come to realize that God not only makes lemonade of lemons, He is the One Who first made lemons sour for His purposes. He is in full control!
Satan has his place in Heaven and on earth, for a time, just as God has purpose for every one of His creatures and every human being. There are no accidents with Him.
*Satan, God’s Servant*
While Satan is our adversary (“the accuser of the brethren” – Revelation 12:10), the predator who goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), is heentirely the Lord’s adversary? Yes, the Lord does battle with him and appoints Michael to cast him out of Heaven - the spiritual realm of power and rulership (Revelation 12:7-9), but we also see how God uses Satan to accomplish His purpose in man.
For example, God used Satan as an instrument to deal with Job:
Job 1:6-8,12 KJV
(6) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
(7) And the LORD said to Satan, From where do you come? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
(8) And the LORD said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and eschews evil? ...
(12) And the LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Was God surprised to see him there in Heaven, among His sons? Not only was He not surprised, He appointed him a task of power over a son of God, over a man made in His image, none other than one who was perfect and upright, who feared God and eschewed evil.
Yet it was clear the work was the Lord’s:
“And came to him all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all those who had known him before. And they ate bread with him in his house, and consoled him and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought on him. Each one also gave him a piece of money, and each one a ring of gold” (Job 42:11 MKJV).
The conclusion of the story is that Job was delivered from his bondage of self-righteousness. He had trusted in his powers of sacrifice and obedience to earn God’s favor, until Satan was done wreaking his havoc on him. In the end, Job declared to God:
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye has seen You. Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:5-6 MKJV).
That isn’t the only time we see Satan play this kind of role. The apostle Paul candidly declares that God kept him humble through Satan:
2 Corinthians 12:6-9 MKJV
(6) For if I desire to boast, I shall not be foolish. For I will speak the truth. But I spare, lest anyone should think of me as being beyond what he sees me, or hears of me;
(7) and by the surpassing revelations, lest I be made haughty, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be made haughty.
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me.
(9) And He said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may overshadow me.
By imprisoning God’s chosen people (physically or spiritually), the Devil (or Satan) serves God’s purposes:
“Do not at all fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the Devil will cast some of you into prison, so that you may be tried. And you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10 MKJV).
So we see that Satan does much good for the saints, according to God’s will. God uses Satan’s adversarial nature to refine men in spirit and motive, bringing them to perfection. Only then will all things become subject to mankind, because men have returned to their rightful place of rulership with God. That may not be Satan’s intent, but it is God’s intent. “A man’s heart devises his way but the Lord directs his steps” (Proverbs 16:9).
Here’s another example of Satan fulfilling God’s will:
“Then Jesus was led by the Spiritup into the wilderness, to be tempted by the Devil” (Matthew 4:1 MKJV).
How could Satan have free access to Jesus, except by the Father’s will and determination? Unless God is out of control to some degree, which of course He isn’t, Satan is appointed by Him to perform his tasks. The wording tells us that God arranged this rendezvous for the express purpose of trying His Son, in preparation for the work ahead.
Satan’s Origin
It has been commonly believed that Satan existed before creation. Not that all knowledge is contained in the Bible, but there is no record in Scripture to justify this belief. Is Satan not known as the serpent?
“And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpentcalled Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Revelation 12:9 MKJV).
“And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years” (Revelation 20:1-2 MKJV).
Genesis says that the serpent was created the very day man was created :
Genesis 1:24-31 MKJV
(24) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creepers, and its beasts of the earth after its kind; and it was so.
(25) And God made the beasts of the earth after its kind, and cattle after their kind, and all creepers upon the earth after their kind. And God saw that it was good.
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
(27) And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
(28) And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.
(29) And God said, Behold! I have given you every herb seeding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; to you it shall be for food.
(30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeper on the earth which has in it a living soul every green plant is for food; and it was so.
(31) And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
The serpent was “good,” in that he was created as intended, with his subtlety and propensity, indeed, appointed mission, to tempt the children of God, Adam and Eve. And consider that God made the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which would be included in all that was “good.”
The Serpent Not a Snake
It is speculated that the serpent in Eden was the creature we know as a serpent or snake today, except at that time, before the temptation and consequent curse, the serpent knew about God, walked, talked, and reasoned with man, so much so that he could persuade children of God to disobey their Heavenly Father.
It is believed that the creature that has been able do little more than hiss, crawl, go underground, “eat dust,” swim, slither up trees, frighten and devour other creatures, strike with venom, and even kill people is the same one spoken of in Genesis, the one who took the life of Adam and Eve.
It is proposed by some that the serpent was victimized by Satan, a prehistorically-existing spirit, a once glorious angel, who had fallen by the time of creation of the heavens and the earth. It is theorized that Satan possessed the serpent and used “it” as a vehicle to approach Eve.
But we must ask - where do we find evidence for those teachings in Scripture? The proponents cite Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. We will handily prove these references invalid as support for such doctrine.
Given that Adam and Eve knew the creatures God made (for Adam named them according to their natures), would it not have been a strange thing that a beast, as we know beasts today, should talk to Eve? If able to talk, was it really the kind of creature we associate with the common snake today, or was it a “he” rather than an “it”?
What Is a Beast?
Let’s just believe the simple declarations of the Bible and put away - by God’s grace - indoctrination, speculation
rationalization, and imagination. The “beast,” or more accurately put in modern English - “living creature” (Strong’s #H2416), was able to talk and to reason. We know that only man of all creatures on earth can do that. Man is a “living creature,” that is, in the KJV’s term, a beast. Is it not therefore justifiable to believe that the beast of the field, called the serpent, was a man as we have always known man - an intelligent, reasoning two-legged creature?
If in the creation, there were only Adam and Eve and non-human animals, then where did the other people come from? I think of Cain’s wife and those who populated the city Cain built (Genesis 4:17). Where did Seth’s wife come from? God was never a God of incest, as some have so foolishly speculated.
Only Intelligent Creatures Spoke and Reasoned
It is speculated that perhaps all creatures were able to talk or communicate with man before sin entered. Yet there is no record of any other creature ever speaking (except for Balaam’s ass, which was an exceptional, supernatural case). When Abel offered sacrifice to God from his flocks, would he, in righteousness, have offered up a creature that could have talked and reasoned with him before the Fall?
Would all living creatures have lost their powers of speech and reason in the Fall, had they begun with any? Were they as guilty as the serpent? If not guilty, why should they have been punished? The record shows that God pronounced judgment only on those partaking in the sin – the serpent and Adam and Eve (son and daughter of God).
And God said nothing to the serpent about taking away his ability to speak. No, the talking “living creature” was a man without the Spirit of God, dealing with Eve. And he, being a child of this world, was “wiser in his generation than the children of light” (Luke 16:8).
Peter Marshall had it at least partially right. Satan was and is a man, which is more than a personification!
The Serpent Cunning from the Beginning
It is not true that Satan took possession of the serpent in Eden. Consider that the serpent“was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.”He was created and introduced as cunning, so cunning that he could reason with Eve and persuade her to go against God’s command to Adam, namely that they were not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.
Wasn’t the serpent made a reasoning creature (a man) from the start to do what he was doing, without evil inspiration from some manipulative supernatural spirit? Here is what Jesus said of him to Satan’s children, men :
“You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murdererfrom the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44 MKJV).
“He was a murderer from the beginning.” From what or whose beginning? The serpent’s beginning - not the earth’s, Eden’s, Heaven’s, an angel’s, or an age’s, but Satan’s. The serpent, and not some mythical evil entity originating in the ether, is the father of lies .
Satan = The Serpent
If a spirit entered a physical creature, ask yourself why the spirit would be called a “serpent,” by the original name of the physical creature it entered and inhabited. Wouldn’t that spirit have been known by its own identity?
“Satan entered into Judas…” - Satan was still Satan and Judas was still Judas.
When Jesus addressed the unclean spirit in the demoniac by the tombs and asked his name, the reply was “Legion.” The answer wasn’t the man’s name, but rather the name of the evil entity inhabiting him.
Therefore, the serpent was speaking on his own behalf, unless otherwise indicated.
With Lies, Satan Gives Truthful Facts
Notice how, in his deception, Satan spoke truth. The serpent said Adam and Eve would be as God, knowing good and evil:
Genesis 3:5-7 MKJV
(5) For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
(6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
(7) And the eyes of both of them were opened. And they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made girdles for themselves.
The serpent was right. Even God confirmed his words:
Genesis 3:22-24 MKJV
(22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever,
(23) therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken.
(24) And He drove out the man. And He placed cherubs at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the Tree of Life.
Is Satan Flesh and Blood, or Is He Spirit?
Satan is a spirit – the Bible clearly declares so:
“And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spiritthat now works in the children of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:1-2 MKJV).
What about men? Men have physical bodies, but are primarily spiritual beings:
“… then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7 MKJV).
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4 MKJV).
The Bible declares we were at creation with Him, the sons of God who shouted for joy at the foundation of the earth(Job 38:4-7). Are we not spiritual beings having a physical experience on earth?
Satan began as a physical being in Eden as a man, and sons of God began their sojourn on earth as men with God’s Spirit, so as to be developed into God’s image.
Satan, the Man
Take note how the work of Satan comes by the hand of men, the children of disobedience:
“I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men” (2 Samuel 7:14 MKJV).
Jesus, walking in victory and obedience, rebuked Satan coming through Peter, or He rebuked Peter as Satan:
Matthew 16:21-23 MKJV
(21) From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
(22) Then Peter took Him and began to rebuke Him, saying, God be gracious to You, Lord! This shall never be to You.
(23) But He turned and said to Peter, Go, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you do not savor the things that are of God, but those that are of men.
Satan came through a man chosen as an apostle of Jesus Christ! How can these things be?
Jesus didn’t say that men savored the things of Satan, but that Satan savored the things of men ! Why? Because he was a man .
The serpent in the Garden was a man, a “living creature” (not a beast, as we know the term in our culture today); he was someone who reasoned, walked, and talked, and who still does. God made him that way from the very beginning!
Luke records: “And Satan entered into Judas, surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the Twelve” (Luke 22:3 MKJV).
The Gospels and Acts record numerous instances of demonic or Satanic possession of people (and even of animals - Matthew 8:28-34). How can Satan dwell in, and possess, a man if he himself is a man? How did he receive that power?
We will see how these things came to be. Is it not important to understand? Should one not know his enemy? Should the saints not know their enemy, his identity, and his ways, if they are to wage war and defeat him? Must Satan not be exposed to them?
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be as wise as serpentsand as harmless as doves” (Matthew 10:16 MKJV).
“Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices” (2 Corinthians 2:11 KJV).
The Spirit-Flesh Connection
Paul said something remarkable that would indicate Satan comes as a man:
“Therefore we desired to come to you, truly I, Paul, both once and twice; but Satan hindered us” (1 Thessalonians 2:18 MKJV).
Was it a bodiless spirit that hindered them, or was it men ? We know that the religious Jews sought many times to kill Paul for preaching the Gospel and for spreading what they called heresy throughout their world. Those very Jews that withstood and persecuted Jesus and His disciples were described by Jesus as being children of their father the Devil. Yes, it was men , serpents, hindering Paul and his companions. Jesus addressed them as such:
“ Offspring of vipers!How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34 MKJV).
Matthew 23:33-35 MKJV
(33) Serpents! Offspring of vipers!How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
(34) Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;
(35) so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
Who killed Abel? Cain. Who was Cain?:
“...not as Cain who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And why did he kill him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s works were righteous” (1 John 3:12 MKJV).
Cain succumbed to sin, which is why it is said he was of the evil one. After God rejected his sacrifice, Cain was warned to resist evil by doing well, but he didn’t believe God and obey:
“If you do well, will you not have honor? And if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master” (Genesis 4:7 BBE).
Cain killed his brother because his brother did right, while he, in envy, chose the wrong. Sin became his master, and he was sealed as a son of Satan, the liar and murderer.
The difference between the two brothers, born of the same parents, was not one of race, sex, lineage, or wealth. The difference was that one had faith, by God’s grace (yes, there most certainly was grace in the Old Testament) and the other had not faith. One became a devil (of the evil one), having chosen evil, and the other a son of God, having believed.
Who Are We Warned Against?
There is an important admonition that must be given. Consider that Satan is known as our arch foe. The Lord called him a murderer and liar from his origin, saying he comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy (John 10:10); however, he never once warned against Satan. Or did He? He frequently warned us of… men!
“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matthew 7:15 MKJV).
“But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues” (Matthew 10:17 MKJV).
“And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6 MKJV).
“And He said to them in His teaching, Beware of the scribes, who love to walk about in robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost places at feasts, who devour widows’ houses, and as a pretense make long prayers. These shall receive greater condemnation” (Mark 12:38-40 MKJV).
“Beware that no one deceive you. For many shall come in My Name, saying, I AM, and shall deceive many” (Mark 13:5-6 MKJV).
That’s precisely what Paul said, in slightly different and very revealing words:
“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:13-14 EMTV).
How does Satan transform himself into an angel of light? He does so through men who come in the Name of Christ, the One Who is the Light of all men!
Men are the means by which Satan deceives mankind, keeping humanity in darkness. Therefore Paul didn’t warn the saints about Satan, so much as about men:
“Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision” (Philippians 3:2 HNV).
“Beware lest anyone rob you through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ” (Colossians 2:8 MKJV).
“Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works; whom you also should guard against, for he has greatly resisted our words” (2 Timothy 4:14-15 EMTV).
Man Is a Serpent, or the Serpent Is a Man
Why should it surprise us that men without God’s Spirit are beasts, serpents with subtle reasoning? The Lord, Who came as a man, knew what was in man:
“But Jesus did not trust Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man” (John 2:24-25 EMTV).
Man is not to be trusted. Truly, did not Judas, Christ’s betrayer, represent all men, being covetous and treacherous? According to the Scriptural testimony, it is so:
Romans 3:10-18 MKJV
(10) As it is written: There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one.
(13) Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
(14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
(15) their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16) destruction and misery are in their way,
(17) and the way of peace they did not know.
(18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Can an intelligent creature get any worse than that?
So did the Devil enter Judas, or was Judas a devil? Is it only one or the other?
“Jesus answered, It is he to whom I shall give the morsel when I have dipped it. And dipping the morsel, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the morsel, then Satan entered into him. Then Jesus said to him, What you do, do quickly” (John 13:26-27 MKJV).
Was Jesus speaking to Judas or the Devil in Judas? Earlier on, He said:
“Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70 MKJV)
So Who Is Satan?
Satan is man. He is in oneness with fallen man, who is the man of sin, the son of perdition. Was not Adam lost to the serpent? Did not the first Adam become the son of perdition, the man who sinned and therefore theman of sin ?
He ate of the Tree of Knowledge, thinking he would be as God:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 MKJV
(1) Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
(2) that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.
(5) Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?
(6) And now you know what holds back, for him to be revealed in his own time.
(7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
(8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
(9) whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
The first Adam disobeyed God; therefore he is the lawless one. His coming is according to the working of Satan (lying, stealing, killing, and destroying as a result of eating of the Tree of Knowledge), and with all power and signs and lying wonders. Have we not all been lawless? And have we not all thought we knew better and deserved to have our way?
Adam is a son of God; keep in mind that, even when fallen, sons of God have the vestiges of Godhood and accompanying powers.
Where Did Sin Begin?
For Adam and Eve, sin began in Eden. But was Adam and Eve’s sin the first of sin? If sin did not exist on earth before Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge, then it was not sin for the living creature/beast (called the serpent) to be contradicting God and deceiving Eve into disobeying Him:
Genesis 3:1-5 MKJV
(1) Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he [not “it”] said to the woman, Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(2) And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.
(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.
(4) And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,
(5) for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
We know that evil existed before Adam and Eve sinned, for there was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, which God had placed there. And the serpent deceived and persuaded Eve to eat of that Tree, which God had forbidden them.
To choose evil over good, or to choose to disobey God, is sin. The serpent essentially called God a liar, accused Him of selfish motives, and persuaded Eve to disobey God, all of which are sin, as we know it. So was there sin before Adam and Eve sinned?
If so, the serpent’s sin was not the same kind of sin as that of Adam and Eve. Remember, we know the serpent was created “good,” as the Word of God testifies:
“And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Genesis 1:31 MKJV).
If the serpent was not forbidden to do what he did, then doing it was not sin, as we know it. Here is what the apostle Paul had to say about the Law and sin:
Romans 7:7-11 MKJV
(7) What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Let it not be said! But I did not know sin except through the Law. For also I did not know lust except the Law said, You shall not lust.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of lust. For apart from Law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the Law once. But when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was to life, was found to be death to me.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
Adam was told what not to do, and he disobeyed. That is sin. As far as we know, the serpent was not forbidden to do what he did.
But didn’t God curse the serpent for what he had done?
“And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every animal of the field. You shall go upon your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel” (Genesis 3:14-15 MKJV).
If it was sin for the serpent to do what he did, for which he was cursed, it would mean the serpent sinned before Adam and Eve did. Therefore there must be two kinds of sin. There is the sin of Adam and Eve, who chose to disobey God, and there is the sin of the serpent, who did what came naturally, according to the nature God had given him. The King James Version puts it this way:
“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come” (Romans 5:14 KJV).
Does that not speak of the nature of the sin of the serpent and his seed, as well as the nature of the sin of the children of God? Is the difference simply that the serpent sins without the Law, while the son of God sins with the Law, which Law only sons of God know and understand? The apostle Paul wrote:
“For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law” (Romans 2:12 MKJV).
There are many apparent faults in men’s speculations and opinions about sin and the nature, origin, and identity of Satan. Of course, this confusion is the way of the serpent, an intelligent, reasoning, subtle, deceptive creature, otherwise known as “man.” This confusion is also the product of being in the dark and lacking light. Darkness and confusion are Satan’s specialties.
Who Is Lucifer?
It is commonly taught that the passage in Isaiah referring to Lucifer (“light-bearer,” “shining star,” “son of the morning”) is speaking of Satan:
Isaiah 14:12-27 MKJV
(12) How you are fallen from the heavens, O shining star, son of the morning [KJV says, “Lucifer”] ! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
(13) For you have said in your heart, I will go up to the heavens, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
(14) I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.
(15) Yet you shall be brought down to Hell, to the sides of the Pit.
(16) Those who see you shall stare and closely watch you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth to tremble; who shook kingdoms;
(17) who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities; who did not open the house for his prisoners?
(18) All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
(19) But you are cast out of your grave like a hateful branch, and like the clothing of those who are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; like a dead body trampled under foot.
(20) You shall not be joined with them in burial, because you ruined your land and killed your people; the seed of evildoers shall never be famous.
(21) Prepare slaughter for his sons , because of the iniquity of their fathers , so that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
(22) For I will rise up against them , says the LORD of Hosts, and cut off from Babylon thename and remnant , and son , and grandson , says the LORD.
(23) I will also make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water; and I will sweep it with the broom of ruin, says the LORD of Hosts.
(24) The LORD of Hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so it shall come to pass; and as I have purposed, it shall stand;
(25) to break Assyria in My land, and on My mountains, trample him under foot. Then his yoke shall be removed from them, and his burden shall be taken off their shoulders.
(26) This is the purpose that is purposed on all the earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out on all the nations.
(27) For the LORD of Hosts has purposed, and who shall reverse it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
Note that Isaiah speaks of a man, a specific one at that - the king of Babylon. Note that the Spirit of God through Isaiah refers to Lucifer’s remnant - son and grandson. Does Satan have sons and grandsons? Also, God not only speaks of Lucifer, but of the whole empire of Babylon with him.
Lucifer’s Judgment Fulfilled
Isaiah prophesied these words - and they came to pass centuries later. The nation of Babylon is no more, and the once glorious Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon and head of gold (Daniel 2), came to be humbled (Daniel 4).
Why was the king of Babylon humbled? Because in his heart and with his mouth he declared, “I will go up to the heavens, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will go up above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.”
Where and when did Nebuchadnezzar think and say such things?
Daniel 4:29-33 MKJV
(29) At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
(30) The king spoke and said, Is this not great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the honor of my majesty?
(31) While the word was in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from Heaven, saying, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken. The kingdom has departed from you.
(32) And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the animals of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen, and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He will.
(33) The same hour the thing was fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar. And he was driven from men, and ate grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of the heavens, until his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds’ claws.
So how can anyone say those words were about Satan, unless the spirit of Satan was being manifested by the unregenerate spirit of man given over to self-glorification and evil? So in a sense, it is true this was about Satan, as Nebuchadnezzar, representative of the first Adam, was walking in the ways of the serpent.
We also know that the image described in Daniel 2 represented the kingdoms of men , Babylon being the first and most glorious, the head of gold, with King Nebuchadnezzar ruling. Also known as Lucifer, Nebuchadnezzar demonstrates how Satan comes in man, and man as Satan.
Heaven and Earth Intertwined
There is an intimate relationship between what happens on earth and what happens in Heaven. The two are intertwined. Here Gabriel tells Daniel about the battle he was engaged in, involving men and angels:
“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia” (Daniel 10:13 KJV).
And what of this, fighting over the body of Moses?:
“But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil, he argued about the body of Moses, he dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy, but said, Let the Lord rebuke you!” (Jude 1:9 MKJV)
And what do the following words signify, if not a direct correlation between Heaven and earth, the spiritual and physical?:
“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father in Heaven” (Matthew 18:10 MKJV).
“Do not be forgetful of hospitality, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it” (Hebrews 13:2 MKJV).
Also consider that Moses and Elijah, after leaving earth, hadn’t left it as much as one might think. They were still very involved with the affairs on earth, even concerning the affairs of none other than the Son of God:
Luke 9:28-31 EMTV
(28) Now it came to pass, about eight days after these words, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray.
(29) And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and glistening.
(30) And behold, two men were talking with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
(31) who appearing in glory were talking about His decease which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem.
How and When Did Satan Enter the Heavens?
The fact is that Satan, being man, is both physical and spiritual, just as we have knownman to be physical and spiritual. Satan began in the Garden of Eden in physical form as a man, called the serpent, and overcame the son and daughter of God, Adam and Eve, through subtlety and temptation, as purposed in God’s grand scheme of things. He thereby usurped Adam’s authority as prince or god over all the earth. That's why Satan was able to appear among the sons of God (Job 1:6), in Adam's place.
Thus were the sons of God and all men made subject to vanity:
“For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him Who subjected it on hope…” (Romans 8:20 MKJV).
“Subjected to vanity.” In other words: “And the LORD God said to the serpent, Because you have done this you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every animal of the field.You shall go upon your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14 MKJV).
Hasn’t man been eating dust ever since? Have we not been earthbound, captive to our animal instincts and passions?
“He who labors works for himself, for his mouth craves it from him” (Proverbs 16:26 MKJV).
“Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap” (Psalms 69:22 KJV).
The saints of God are those called up to a higher realm and state, while yet living on this physical plane. And in the process of being taken up, they call on God to deliver them from the dominion of the serpent, within and without:
Psalms 44:22-26 MKJV
(22) Yea, for Your sake we are put to death all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
(23) Awaken! Why do You sleep, O LORD? Arise! Do not cast us off forever.
(24) Why do You hide Your face, and forget our affliction and distress?
(25) For our soul is bowed down to the dust; our belly holds fast to the earth.
(26) Arise for our help, and redeem us for the sake of Your mercy.
Adam’s sin led to the Tree of Life being cut off from him and thereby from all men (Genesis 3:24). When the serpent died, he passed on victorious into the spiritual realm to rule over all the kingdoms of the earth. He has been known as Satan, the adversary, the enemy of all good, the Devil, the dragon, the great serpent, liar, murderer, tempter, and the accuser of the brethren. He lives to control all men on earth of like nature, however and wherever God permits him to do so. He does so by the power of death:
“Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroyhim who had the power of death(that is, the Devil)” (Hebrews 2:14 MKJV).
All of creation groans for the sons of God to regain their rightful position:
“For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God” (Romans 8:19 MKJV).
Even the sons of God groan within for that day:
“And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body” (Romans 8:23 MKJV).
The serpent is the ruling spirit, the prince of this world, against whom the children of God do battle and overcome by the Spirit of God through Jesus Christ, Who, by His death and resurrection, has received all power and authority in Heaven and earth.
We become victors through faith when we believe and obey God:
“Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7 KJV).
“Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour; whom firmly resist in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions in the world are being completed in your brotherhood” (1 Peter 5:8-9 MKJV).
How did the Serpent Get to Rule Earth from Above?
If the serpent began as a man on earth, how did he get into the spiritual realm to rule, evilly influence, and demonically possess, flesh and blood on earth?
The serpent didn’t give his life for Adam, but he took Adam’s life. Succumbing to his wife’s influence, Adam died the day he ate of the Tree of Knowledge, just as God had warned, “But you shall not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Genesis 2:17 MKJV).
Adam was cast out of Eden, the throne room of the earth, losing his position of rulership with God. Consequently, the whole world lost the enlightened leadership of a son of God and the way of abundant life he was to represent.
In exchange, the world was made subject to the spirit and rulership of the serpent and his way of carnal knowledge, reasoning, and lawlessness, which bring death and destruction. This was the result of Adam’s forfeiture of godly power when he chose to disobey God, following his wife, who was deceived by the serpent.
Eventually, the serpent physically died, and because of his successful usurpation, he passed on into the heavens with his winnings. That is how he continued to rule in the spiritual realm as the prince of this world in place of the first Adam, a rule that began when Adam fell.
It would require the Last Adam, Jesus Christ, to come to earth as a man, pay the ransom for us, and pass into the heavens with His winnings to ultimately reverse the usurpation of the serpent, and to not only restore the first Adam to his original station, but well above. Glory to God!
The Prince of This World
While Satan is known as the prince of this world, the Scriptures also say men rule the earth:
“The heavens, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; but the earth He has given to the sons of men” (Psalms 115:16 MKJV).
We have also seen that Lucifer ruled at the head of men’s kingdoms on earth. So how did speculation that Lucifer is Satan come about? Since Lucifer is clearly said to be a man, we should go back to where the serpent (Satan) first interacted with the man God made in His image.
We see that Satan caused Adam to fall through his wife, whom Satan deceived. When Adam followed her and ate from the Tree of Knowledge, he took on Satan’s nature. He exchanged his Head for a new one – under the influence of the serpent and the Tree of Knowledge. Thus Satan usurped the position of ruler of this world.
Didn’t the serpent promise that any who ate from the Tree of Knowledge would become as God? And didn’t God confirm what the serpent said?
“And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:4-5 MKJV).
“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever, therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken” (Genesis 3:22-23 MKJV).
Those coming after Adam and ruling the world under Satan, such as Nebuchadnezzar (aka Lucifer), exhibit the character of the usurper, which is manifest in wanting and presuming to be as God. Therefore Lucifer, the king of Babylon, is Satan, one ruling in his nature and under his authority, just as the apostles, ruling in the nature of God, are the Christ, the Last Adam Who has come to destroy the works of the Devil.
Ezekiel speaks of the downfall of a glorious one who was in Eden, referring to the king of Tyre:
Ezekiel 28:12-15 MKJV
(12) Son of man, lift up a lament over the king of Tyre, and say to him, So says the Lord GOD: You seal the measure, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
(13) You have been in Edenthe garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the turquoise, and the emerald, and gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and of your flutes was prepared in you in the day that you were created.
(14) You were the anointed cherub that covers, and I had put you in the holy height of God where you were; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
How was the king of Tyre in Eden? Wasn’t Ezekiel speaking of Adam, who was once without iniquity, but was then found with it?
“And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you? And he said, I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked, and I hid myself. And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat?” (Genesis 3:9-11 MKJV)
As for Satan, we know from the Scriptures and from the Lord that he was a liar from the beginning, and not without iniquity:
“You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murdererfrom the beginning , and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44 MKJV).
So who was that wise and perfect one in the garden of God that fell from grace? Was it not Adam, represented by his progeny, the king of Tyre and the king of Babylon, sons of men who ruled the earth – through the serpent?
And what will happen to the kingdoms of men in the end? Will they not be destroyed? And by whom shall they be destroyed, if not by God and those who are His in Christ, the Last Adam?
Daniel 2:44-45 MKJV
(44) And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
(45) Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure. (Read the entire chapter.)
The Serpent’s Purpose
The serpent was created an adversary, an opponent, and an accuser, whereby the sons of God would be tried, even as the adversary tried the Son of God in the wilderness at the beginning of His ministry.
The Hebrew word for “serpent,” as found in Genesis 3 (Strong’s #H5175 – “naw-khawsh”) is rooted in the word “naw khash,” which means, among other things, “to learn by experience.”
Adam and Eve had to learn by experience, which means they needed to be made subject to all there was, including evil. They could not remain naïve or innocent. They, as raw material, had to be subjected to the processing, as gold is tried by fire and dough is baked into bread.
We are appointed to learn by experience. Textbook knowledge is never sufficient. While it may give students false confidence, they inevitably come to realize that knowledge is no match for experience. Man must learn the hard way, the only way there is to truly learn. All of creation was made subject to vanity, the Bible says:
“For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him Who subjected it on hope” (Romans 8:20 MKJV).
The serpent was the instrument of experience by which God would subject man to vanity, as He created him in His image all the way to completion. By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, man learned to walk by sight and not by faith, reaping the bitter experience of trusting in himself and not being able to escape the corrupt fruits of doing so without a Savior. Man is imprisoned in his experience until the grace of God turns him away from trusting in himself to trusting in His Maker.
The Beginning of the Battle
When did the battle begin between Satan and the sons of God?
The war was engaged in the very beginning, in the Garden of Eden when the serpent beguiled Eve (the daughter of God), causing her to fall from the blessing and fellowship of God by eating of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam, the son of God (Luke 3:38), followed her into death that day by eating with her:
Genesis 3:1-6 MKJV
(1) Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(2) And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.
(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.
(4) And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,
(5) for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
(6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Who Orchestrates the Battle?
It was then that God spoke, telling us the essence and the conclusion of the battle of the ages. Notice that the enmity is HIS doing, not Adam’s, Eve’s, or the serpent’s:
“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head [destroy you] , and you shall bruise His heel [pain Him] ” (Genesis 3:15 MKJV).
The Seed Who came through the woman is Jesus Christ, and as God in the flesh, the Son of Man (Christ) holds the key to defeating Satan on battleground earth.
I once had a vision many years ago:
I saw a throne placed outdoors, in the middle of a vast plain. I was seated on the ground by the empty chair, leaning against it, facing the same direction as the throne, with my right arm resting on its left arm. I was comfortably dressed in white casual garments, looking ahead at a great battle in progress.
The throne was the Lord’s. In front, several yards away, facing away from the chair and me, was the Lord. He was standing and watching that same battle raging ahead of Him in the distance. I knew it was a battle between the forces of good and evil. Jesus was calmly watching, in full control, and it seemed as if He was even orchestrating it. He seemed to know the outcome, that it was good.
Long interesting reading. Let's discuss this after you have read everything. Shalom
Evil to Be Overcome by Man
It is most important to know that all was anticipated and planned by God, Who purposed that by His power, man would eventually overcome evil in the process of being made complete in His image. God served notice of the fulfillment of this eventuality in the beginning, speaking to the serpent:
“And I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel” (Genesis 3:15 MKJV).
To fulfill the prophecy, a Seed needed to come from the woman to reverse the situation. That Seed was Jesus, the Messiah or Savior. He came, and overcoming death through death, defeated the one who had the power of death, the Devil, that old serpent. Millennia after the serpent had captured the rulership of earth and all that was therein, God came as the Son of Man and took it back.
The Seed of the woman was bruised in the heel - He died, but only in the flesh and temporarily, arising victorious to live forevermore. He bruised the serpent’s head - the serpent would never rule (or be head/prince) again, in the souls of all those who come to Christ:
“Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Hebrews 2:14-15 MKJV).
“He who sins is of the Devil, for the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the Devil” (1 John 3:8 HNV).
Jesus came to deal with the usurper; He came to judge him:
John 16:7-11 MKJV
(7) But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
(8) And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
(9) Concerning sin, because they do not believe on Me;
(10) concerning righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
(11) concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
There were others who laid claim to the fulfillment of the prophetic promise of the Victorious Seed to come before the Real One came. Of them, Jesus said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them” (John 10:7-8 MKJV).
Those were all seeds of the serpent seeking to maintain authority over the earth. They came, beginning in the days of Nimrod and Semiramis, in pretense, laying claim to being the fulfillment of the ancient Scriptures that pertained to the coming Messiah. They came usurping and deceiving, with many names throughout our history – Baal, Zeus, Osiris, Molech, Tammuz, and many, many more.
After His resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ passed back into the heavens to receive all power and authority in Heaven and earth from that time onward:
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18 MKJV).
By His authority men are reconciled to God, and they in turn serve to reconcile others to Him:
2 Corinthians 5:14-21 MKJV
(14) For the love of Christ constrains us, judging this, that if One died for all, then all died;
(15) and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to Him Who died for them and having been raised.
(16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.
(17) So that if anyone is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(18) And all things are of God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.
(20) Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ, as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(21) For He has made Him Who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Thus are the works of the Devil exposed and destroyed.
The Fallen Stars
Who are the casualties of the Devil’s works?
“And another sign was seen in the heavens. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads! And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them onto the earth...” (Revelation 12:3-4 MKJV).
That Scripture isn’t talking about Satan and his angels being cast down, but about Satan bringing others down, those being the seed of the woman, the children of God, whose downfall happens before Satan is cast down. And then:
“And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Revelation 12:9 MKJV).
Remember what the Lord said:
“And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?” (Matthew 12:26 KJV)
Satan doesn’t go after his own (they are his) - he goes after the children of God:
“And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Revelation 12:17 MKJV).
Balaam was a prophet of God. He heard from God and blessed and cursed in the power of God. When he blessed people, they were blessed, and when he cursed, the power of God went with his curses. He is the example of one who fell to Satan:
Numbers 22:4-22 MKJV
(4) And Moab said to the elders of Midian, Now this company is licking up all around us, as the ox licks up the grass of the field. And Balak the son of Zippor was king of the Moabites at that time.
(5) He sent messengers therefore to Balaam the son of Beor, to Pethor, by the river of the land of the sons of his people, to call him, saying, Behold! A people come out from Egypt. Behold! They cover the face of the earth, and they are staying across from me.
(6) Therefore, I pray you, come now and curse this people for me. For they are too mighty for me. Perhaps I shall prevail so that we may strike them, and so that I may drive them out of the land. For I know that he whom you bless is blessed, and he whom you curse is cursed.
(7) And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian pulled up stakes with the rewards of divination in their hand. And they came to Balaam and spoke the words of Balak to him.
(8) And he said to them, Stay here tonight, and I will bring you word again, as the LORD shall speak to me. And the leaders of Moab stayed with Balaam.
(9) And God came to Balaam and said, What men are these with you?
(10) And Balaam said to God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, has sent to me, saying,
(11) Behold! A people has come out of Egypt which covers the face of the earth. Come now, curse them for me. Perhaps, I shall be able to overcome them and drive them out.
(12) And God said to Balaam, You shall not go with them. You shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.
(13) And Balaam rose up in the morning and said to the leaders of Balak, Go into your land, for the LORD refuses to let me go with you.
(14) And the leaders of Moab rose up. And they went to Balak and said, Balaam refuses to come with us.
(15) And Balak sent leaders again, more and more honorable than those.
(16) And they came to Balaam and said to him, So says Balak the son of Zippor, Please let nothing hinder you from coming to me.
(17) For I will raise you up to very great honor, and I will do whatever you say to me. Please come then and curse this people for me.
(18) And Balaam answered and said to the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.
(19) But please now stay here also this night so that I may know what more the LORD will say to me.
(20) And God came to Balaam at night and said to him, If the men come to call you, rise up, go with them. But still, the word which I shall say to you, that you shall do.
(21) And Balaam rose up in the morning and saddled his ass, and went with the rulers of Moab.
(22) And God’s anger was kindled because he went. And the Angel of the LORD stood in the way as an enemy against him. And he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants with him.
Peter speaks of such fallen messengers:
2 Peter 2:9-22 HNV
(9) The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;
(10) but chiefly those who walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries;
(11) whereas angels, though greater in might and power, don’t bring a railing judgment against them before the Lord.
(12) But these, as unreasoning creatures, born natural animals to be taken and destroyed, speaking evil in matters about which they are ignorant, will in their destroying surely be destroyed,
(13) receiving the wages of unrighteousness; people who count it pleasure to revel in the daytime, spots and blemishes, reveling in their deceit while they feast with you;
(14) having eyes full of adultery, and who can’t cease from sin; enticing unsettled souls; having a heart trained in greed; children of cursing;
(15) forsaking the right way, they went astray, having followed the way of Balaam the son of Beor , who loved the wages of wrong-doing;
(16) but he was rebuked for his own disobedience. A mute donkey spoke with a man’s voice and stopped the madness of the prophet.
(17) These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever.
(18) For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error;
(19) promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.
(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Yeshua the Messiah, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
(21) For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb, “The dog turns to his own vomit again,” and “the sow that has washed to wallowing in the mire.”
We also hear of those fallen from the writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 6:4-6 MKJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(5) and have tasted the good Word of Godand the powersof the world to come,
(6) and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, sincethey crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
Who Are the Fallen Messengers?
They are those who were once messengers of God, as was Balaam. They went the way of Esau, having had the birthright, but losing it by succumbing to the flesh, despising the gift and glory of God, which resulted in God withdrawing His blessing from them. They fell to the error of Balaam, seeking earthly reward, and sought their own glory, as did the sons of Korah. They are not of those who had neverknown the Lord.
They were once genuine stars of heaven (the spiritual realm), called to be servants of the Lord God, preachers and ministers on earth. While two thirds of the stars remain faithful to the end, this one third succumbed through diverse trials and temptations to the prince of this world, the serpent/dragon who dragged them down with his tail.
“These are sunken rocks in your love feasts, feasting together with you; feeding themselves without fear; waterless clouds being carried about by winds; fruitless autumn trees, having died twice, having been plucked up by the roots [once alive and rooted] ; wild waves of the sea foaming up their shames; wandering stars for whom blackness of darkness has been kept forever” (Jude 1:12-13 MKJV).
There are many who preach and presume to be ministers and faithful servants of God, but are not and never were chosen. They are not among those “angels” cast down to the earth, who once were servants of God.
For example, in 1987, I spoke to Dave Neufeld of Coaldale, Alberta, who professed faith and bemoaned the recent downfall of Jimmy and Tammy Bakker as ministers of God. I told him Jimmy Bakker could never fall because he never stood to begin with. Dave scoffed; he didn’t like to hear that. He was deceived - he never had the faith of Christ, either.
Many charlatans using God’s Name who have failed in their “spiritual ministries” have always been earthly, having never had anything to do with the One they professed to serve. If they appeared to fall, they didn’t fall from Heaven; they were simply exposed as the frauds they were.
As for the true twice dead (those who once knew the Lord, but quenched His Spirit), they are still able to speak the letter of the truth, though they no longer walk in it.
Turning Aside after Satan
What does it mean for those being restored to God through Christ to turn aside after Satan?
“Therefore I want the younger ones to marry, bear children, guide the house, giving no occasion to the adversary because of reproach. For some have already turned aside after Satan” (1 Timothy 5:14-15 MKJV).
Turning after Satan means to savor the things that are of men, of the flesh and of the world. Did these young widows go out to carouse, be prostitutes and drug addicts? Not necessarily. They simply went back to the common life of many in this world - the societies, institutions, activities, interests, and lifestyles that are under the power and in the spirit of the prince of this world, the serpent:
“For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark. And they did not know until the Flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man” (Matthew 24:38-39 MKJV).
Thus they turned aside after Satan, not considering the inestimably greater riches and glory of the Kingdom of God compared to the kingdoms of men.
Deliverance over to Satan
What about those who were unruly in the Kingdom of God, such as the fornicator in the Corinthian church who was delivered over to Satan? He was turned back over to the world, to the disciplines of men in the flesh, to the kingdom of darkness, the serpent’s kingdom. Thus, hopefully, he would learn the difference between flesh and spirit, and would come to choose the better.
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 MKJV
(3) For as being absent in body but present in spirit, I indeed have judged already as though I were present concerning him who worked out this thing;
(4) in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, with my spirit; also, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ;
(5) to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
They expelled the man from their heavenly community and let him suffer the fruits of his ways at the hand of Satan, who is invested with authority under God to deal with wayward sinners by destroying the flesh, so that their spirit might be saved. That is one of the ordained jobs of the prince of this world.
But to the called, chosen, and faithful saints of God, the prophetic promise of Genesis 3:15 given to the woman, bruising the head of the seed of the serpent, is now in process of fulfillment:
“And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen” (Romans 16:20 MKJV).
The Synagogue of Satan
“I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9 MKJV).
Who are of the synagogue of Satan, if not men, Satan’s human religious servants?
These are the ones who profess faith, and fault and persecute the true servants of the Lord, the children of God:
“But then even as he born according to flesh persecuted him born according to the Spirit, so it is also now” (Galatians 4:29 MKJV).
“Yes, My own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, who ate bread with Me, has lifted up his heel against Me” (Psalms 41:9 HNV).
“And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Revelation 12:17 MKJV).
As the religious, pretentious professors of faith opposed the Jews in the rebuilding of the Temple in the day of Zerubbabel and Joshua, so they oppose the work of God today.
Ezra 4:1-4 MKJV
(1) And when the enemies of Judah and Benjamin heard that the sons of the captivity built the Temple to the LORD, the God of Israel,
(2) then they came to Zerubbabel and to the chief of the fathers, and said to them, Let us build with you, for we seek your God, even as you.And we have sacrificed to Him since the days of Esar-haddon king of Assyria, who brought us up here.
(3) But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said to them, You have nothing to do with us to build a house to our God. But we ourselves together will build to the LORD, the God of Israel, as King Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us.
(4) Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building.
Where Did Evil Spirits Come From?
Who are all those devils we read about in the Scriptures and meet up with in our daily lives, spirits who possess and rule unregenerate men on earth? Where did these spirits or devils come from? There are at least two possibilities: They can be spirits that have never dwelled as men in physical bodies on earth (like angels), or they can be the spirits of evil men (seeds of the serpent) passed on from the earth, even as the serpent passed on and reigned on earth thereafter.
We see that unregenerate men are children of Satan, who is the serpent and prince of this world. Seeing men are serpents (cunning, subtle creatures), can it not be that evil spirits were formerly Satan’s children on earth? That would mean devils in the spiritual realm were once men, even as the serpent in Eden was a man, who was Satan.
There are no evident Scriptures we are aware of that directly argue for or against this proposition that devils were formerly men who dwelt on earth, not spirits who had never lived on earth, as in the case of angels, like Michael and Gabriel. However, I will put forth some reasoning by, and from, the Scriptures.
Consider that saints are truly one with all saints:
“And the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul” (Acts 4:32 MKJV).
“Therefore since we also are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us” (Hebrews 12:1 MKJV).
Are not the saints who have passed on included in actual fellowship with those on earth? The Scriptures say so:
Hebrews 12:22-24 MKJV
(22) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,(23) to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(24) and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
So we believers on earth are one with believers in Heaven, through the Spirit of Christ, each of us being one with Him, Who is the Head of the Body.
By the same token, the children of the Evil One are also one. Recall the evil spirit who spoke to Jesus as one, and yet as many.
Peter relates how, after His resurrection, Jesus preached to spirits in prison, the departed souls taken away in the Flood:
1 Peter 3:18-20 MKJV
(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;(19) in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(20) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water).
Note Peter speaks of Jesus preaching, but not saving or redeeming, which suggests some might believe and some might not. So what of those who don’t believe? Can they not be spirits who trouble those on earth?
Is it unheard of that men passed on are still involved in the affairs of earth? Not at all. We find that, after his departure from this world, Samuel was quite aware of what was happening during King Saul’s reign, which Saul found out when he requested a witch to contact Samuel from the dead:
1 Samuel 28:15-19 MKJV
(15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am grievously distressed, for the Philistines are warring against me. And God has left me and does not answer me any more, neither by prophets nor by dreams. And I have called you so that you may make known to me what I should do.
(16) And Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has left you and has become your enemy?
(17) And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and is giving it to your neighbor, to David.
(18) Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD, nor execute his fierce wrath on Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you now.
(19) And the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD also shall deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
As Samuel said, so it was. The next day, Saul and his sons were slain.
We have another example of men passed from this realm to the unseen world, very much involved in the affairs of this world:
“And about eight days after these sayings, He took Peter and John and James and went up into a mountain to pray. And as He prayed, the appearance of His countenance was altered, and His clothing was dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His exodus, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem” (Luke 9:28-31 MKJV).
Daniel informs us that those representing principalities on earth were engaged in warfare in the heavens, a warfare in which the angels participated:
“Then he said to me, Do not fear, Daniel; for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and to chasten yourself before your God, your words were heard. And I have come for your words. But the ruler of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days. But lo, Michael, one of the chief rulers, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia” (Daniel 10:12-13 MKJV).
“Then he said, Do you know why I come to you? And now I will return to fight with the ruler of Persia. And when I have gone out, lo, the ruler of Greece shall come” (Daniel 10:20 MKJV).
Heaven and earth and the citizens of each are more connected to each other than many realize. So now if we see the righteous passed on from this earth informed and involved in the affairs of this world, is it unreasonable or illogical to expect the unrighteous to also be involved? And if they are unrighteous, would they not be involved in unrighteous activities? And would not such entities be evil spirits or devils (demons)?
Bro Chimaizom, I had already explained Ezekiel 28 to you on this forum. TBH if you can go back and read my messages you will find my explanations. One thing is clear that the content of that chapter is about a MAN. Those allegorical lamentations that Yahweh asked Ezekiel to take up is not about Satan but you think that a man cannot be described with such glorious descriptions because we are used to western way of thinking.
You should take time to read my postings even though they are so lengthy, yet we can find some clarifications in there. Please endeavour to study them and we shall dissect the write up with an open mind sir.
Good question my brother.
Looking at Ecclesiastes, if you don't understand the same Hebrew or Eastern way of thinking, your conclusion will be that the dead are no longer conscious. However, by digging deeper, we can see that the dead are conscious but not allowed by Yahweh to participate in the affairs of the living........see Revelations chapter 6: 9-11 talks about the souls under the altar of those who were slain for the testimony of Yahweh......crying with a loud voice.....
Also see Hebrews 12:1 which is a continuation of chapter 11.....Remember that the bible was not divided into chapters originally. Therefore those cloud of witnesses surrounding us can be safely interpreted as those people of faith in chapter 11, the heavenly assembly of the departed qodesh people.
How do you know for sure that it was a future vision my brother? Remember that Revelations 1 states that John should write about:
1.Things which were past
2. Things were going on at the time of John, and
3. Those thing which are to come.
Having said that, the book of Esdras mentioned that the souls of the departed are in the Chambers. I don't know what the chambers could possibly mean but it appears to me that it speaks of the Grave or Sheol or Hades.
Bro Tunde, read Revelations 1:19. That's where I was referring to.
That speaks of The Past, The Present and The Future.
Regarding immortal souls, I can't say much about that for now. However, I don't think that human beings are like animals who die and that's the end. I believe that there's more after death for man. Yahweh is the potter and we are the clay.
So the beast and man has the same fate at death but there is hope of after life for humans at resurrection
Also if a man has immortal soul after death then Jesus would have visited his disciples while in the grave an console them he wouldn't have waited till after the resurrection.Also he may have found a way to interact with his followers but there's no where in the bible that says a dead has immortal soul
It's not my claim but my understanding of the passage. Let's refrain from using certain words in the forum brethren. It makes it look like someone is trying to peddle heresy or lie against the truth of Yah's word.
Having said that I will let u know the reason I said the souls under the altar does not refer to a future time as you mentioned. In fact.2 the truth is we are both correct on that. I'll explain what I mean.
Remember that at that time when John was given the Revelations, there was the persecution of the Believers by I think Emperor Nero. So some believers were already killed by the enemies, forming part of the souls under the altar. Yahweh said to them to be patient until the number of their brethren to be killed for the testimony of Yahshua is complete. Therefore, it is an ongoing process. The numbers are being added from time to time until Yahweh deems it complete.
I said earlier that I don't know about immortality of souls. It's not a subject I have delved into. My question is that what happens to a man who is dead at the end of all things. I posited that the souls under the altar are not allowed to interfere in the physical world.
Also, the story of Samuel did not say it was demonstrate brought up Samuel's image to appear, but you're assuming big about this due to what has been taught us in the Sunday schools or bible schools. We cannot force the scriptures to read what we want them to read. I said before that we must understand the background information, the Eastern or Hebrew thinking and to whom they were written to properly understand what is being written.
But you are reading your own ideas into the scriptures bro. Where does the scriptures say what you're positing about Elijah and Moses? If you tell me that this is what u think, I wouldn't have much issues but you're saying that it is what it is for real without having any scriptures to support such ascertion in the passage.
The blood of Abel crying is different. Abel is also part of the souls under the altar who were killed...... how do u know that the souls under the altar is figurative? After their complaint, they were given white robes and told to wait until........is that also figurative? The blood of Abel crying out is a representation of vengeance. Yes, it is both figurative and true expression of the spirit of Abel crying for vengeance. Whereas the blood of Yahshua speaks of better things......which means the death and subsequent resurrection of Yahshua speaks better things than that of Abel.
I'm dwelling on John 3:13
There can't be souls in heaven at the moment
As it I obvious that when a man died his spirit ascends to meet God who gave it according o the book of Ecclesiastes
So there can't be a soul in heaven and for those given white robe it's a Future events that God will take vengeance those who killed his prophets
I don't know where the heaven you're referring to is located.........All I know is that the scriptures reveals that there are souls under the altar which cried to Yahweh for vengeance. They were told to be patience and we're given robes of white. That doesn't contradicts what Yahshua said in John 3:13. No MAN has gone to the throne of Yahweh and come back....only the son of Man who proceeds from His father's throne has done that.
Yes throughout the picture we often read about soul who sin shall die so soul can't be immoral
Then we need to understand where the heaven are as this book of revelation is referring to alter of God
Alter of God is the throne of Yahweh
I sense that you are trying to defend a particular doctrine here with the effort you're making to make the souls under the altar be a future events. I may be wrong o.........
So what will make these souls under the altar to apply for the future and not an ongoing process until the numbers are complete?
I was born and brought up an Anglican so I know the meaning of doctrine but I left when God called me to his understand and the congregation I belong to now don't believe in doctrine so there is not doctrinal issue here but what I read and understand in the bible as that John can't contradict himself
John can't tell is something now and after some years tell us another thing
Let's not misunderstand Ezekiel 18:20......what does it mean by saying the soul that sin will die? In Genesis Yahweh told Adam and Hawah that the very day they eat of the fruit......They shall surely die. What death? Romans says also that All have sinned..... Meaning that All have died.....
And that John told us that most of events in the book of revelation are to take place in future
John is not the problem here but understanding of what he wrote is the issue we have.
It seems u don't read my messages. I said to u to read Rev1:19.
Yes y understanding what he wrote is what we need to know
This is why I believe that u already have a position on the issue of Future.
He said those things which are already past, those things which are happening then and those things which must come later.3 categories
Why restrict souls under the altar to those things which must come in future?
2 Corinthians 12:2-5 talked about paradise an the throw of God but where could that be ?
I have already mentioned that the souls under the altar covers the 3 categories. It's an ongoing process as u can read from the book itself.....Yahweh said wait until the numbers are complete before He dish out His judgements.
All the revelations of God to John has categories and I believe that the souls under the alter are future events and bible didn't say they were restricted
Does it mean that the saints that have been killed in the past would be treated differently from those that would die in the future?
They can't be souls and that why I said its figurative and God Is keeping the numbers of the saints being murdered on Daily basis all the the world
Nope they won't be treated differently at all as they died for the same cause
But you are the ones restricting them to future. Whereas Emperor Nero just slayed thousands of believers before John was dragged to the Isle of Patmos having tried to kill him.
Even presently they are killing god's saints
Also when the beast an the false prophet come an prosecute the elect God will still take vengeance on them
Well, you believe it's figurative, but I see something of an actual event that John was made to see in the Spirit.
I may share some materials about Daniel and Revelations in the FUTURE (lolzzzzzz) which have some interesting stuffs.
John would have told us if these souls are alive an residing under the alter but I said bible using soul or blood crying out mean figurative and doesn't mean they are real
Good discussions all the same.
I don't think so. You can't say what John should ha e said or not. He wrote what he was asked to write. John said after the 5th seal was opened, he saw the souls under the altar. That explains that those souls under the altar have been there before John came to The Isle of Patmos. It was because of the revealing that he saw them. And the number were not yet completed at the time of John's revelations. Meaning that the numbers were being added on a continuous basis. That's why I believe that it was an actual event and not a figure of speech like blood crying. And BTW the life of a man is in the blood.
Again, thanks to Tunde and Chimaizom for their contributions. Like I mentioned earlier, we are after that which is the truth. We may not know everything while in this body. However, we must understand that only the truth can make us free.
